This is new construction, selling for well over $1 million. It should reflect that in its workmanship and material use. PROFESSIONALS should be working on this house (as they should on every house, but that is the subject of other blogs).
I have done enough of these to walk into a house and see where the professionals work and where they don't...
Not only should proper materials be used in their various applications, but they should be installed with best-practice techniques as well. Why put together something that is not going to last?
To get by cheaply and beyond the warranty period before things fall apart?
Yes, that was cynical. But, unfortunately, not far from the truth!
This and the next two posts will show three examples of unprofessional work, not employing best practice and using the wrong materials all found during one pre-drywall inspection of the same house.
THE PEOPLE WORKING ON THIS HOUSE ARE DRYWALL SCREW HAPPY. That reflects unprofessional work, done by unprofessional people, to get work done unprofessionally quickly and unprofessionally cheaply. You catch my drift...
Example #1 - the toilet flange. This plastic device is screwed to the floor directly under a toilet. It directs the flushed water into the plumbing drain, hopefully without a leak. It also houses the big brass screws you see on each side of the toilet to hold the toilet securely to the floor. These screws combine with bolts, and are gently tightened under the round plastic caps on each side of your toilet base. Go look!
Best practice - stainless steel screws! These are included with the flange in a small plastic bag. Why? Because there is water here and the water can leak. Stainless steel can handle some water, even over time. Also, the stainless steel screws intentionally come with larger heads which nearly fill the small bowl you see for them to sit in. You should use a minimum of four for each flange.
Why not drywall screws? Because --
1. they are weak and thin and the head can sheer off!
2. the heads are small and as people try to seat themselves on the toilet it necessarily rocks. These small heads can snap the plastic and it can literally pop off, as they break the plastic around them. As someone who has replaced toilets, I have seen this!
And 3. they rust! As they rust, they get weaker. As they rust, they quickly rot the floor around them. Those are two problems you don't want under a toilet! Leaking under the tile, and sometimes vinyl, can rot the flooring underneath and show no clue!
Drywall screws are meant for, um, drywall! I looked under each of the toilets (the house is skeletal at this point) and I did not see screws penetrate through the floor under any of the four upper-level toilets! Not only are they the wrong screws, but too short too!
But even if these screws were long enough to penetrate through the flooring, they are NOT the right product to use! EVEN IF YOU USE SIX!
My recommendation: whenever your clients are buying new construction, get a pre-drywall inspection every time. That is the only time the house is skeletal and such things as these can be seen. While we might hope or imagine that on OUR house The Golden Rule is followed, very, very often it is not.
Stay tuned for two more examples of similar unprofessional work, on this very house.
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC 
Based in Bristow, serving all of Northern Virginia.
Office (703) 330-6388 Cell (703) 585-7560
Jay,
This doesn't even seem to be an issue of the builder trying to cut costs...since the screws are already provided. Unprofessional...certainly.
Rich
As if we were not convinced before about the importance of a pre-drywall inspection on new construction. But how many times have I heard builders say that clients don't need an inspection because they are protected by the warranty!
Jay, Nice details and summary of the issues with the wrong screw choice!
Yikes. Such a little thing can do so much damage. I'm sold on pre-drywalls for sure!
Jay, many times we just don't question the level of quality enough. Out of sight and out of mind until the future source of damage is revealed. Nice heads up going into the project, one less headache to field.
Good morning, Jay. Good blog. I better appreciate the "behind the scenes" of building a home and the do's and don'ts whenever I read your blogs. Thank you for your insight.
That drives me crazy too. Lazy contractors. Give them a screw gun and a pocket full of drywall screws and they'll screw something up, that's for sure...
Perhaps the installer couldn't figure out how to open the plastic bag with the correct screws. You continue to provide all the proof I ever need to convince my new home buyers to hire their own home inspector.
Oh that is terrible, drip drip drip all the way to a potentially very expensive repair. As mentioned why wouldn't they just use the screws it came with? Pre-drywall inspections are a must, and unfortunately you can't base it on the price of the home, the same subs doing work on a $200 house are the ones doing the million $ homes also!
Jay, over a million huh? You can throw that old saying right out the window.. "you get what you pay for" because so many times it is the exact opposite. I am looking forward to the next in the series.
Methinks, Richard, that the provided screws would be kept by the "professional" to use on his or another house where it is important to him to use the right material.
Kathryn - I heard that just yesterday from another potential client. I referred her to my many blogs!
Thanks Bliz. It seems like a little thing here, but in time it is not!
Coral - and you should be! You read my posts! If we should ever have one together, if your house is like the one yesterday, you will be shocked!
Kevin - I hope the builder actually does something about it!
You're welcome Kimberly. Hopefully all the home inspection blogs you read are instructive!
In some applications, like decks, I like to see things screwed up Michael. But not here.
I'll be he figured out how to put the bag in his pocket Cindy!
They usually are David. I call it 7-11 construction where guys are picked up in the morning to work on houses, under the table for cash.
Thanks Andrea. I thought that putting all three into one blog would be too lengthy. And this way gives people something specific to read about or reblog.
Best practice, yes....code..who cares. Every home owner want 'best practice' standards. The pre-drywall inspection is the most informative inspection you can have done. Great post Jay. Maybe there should be a tax on drywall screws. I don't exactly love seeing particle board under toilet installations either.
Thank you again Jay for directing our eyes to places we never thought of before.
Jay,
That doesn't seem to be uncommon does it? It is amazing what people will do when they can hide the details long enough to get paid. Terrible!
Hey Robert! I agree, and here they used OSB. Heck, who uses plywood today? I don't think a tax on drywall screws would change that practice!
Bob - there will be a couple of more to look out for, drywall screws all!
Judi - unfortunately it is NOT uncommon! And you are right, these are things that can get hidden easily.
Good morning Jay; another great post. thank you
Jay, if they didn't make drywall/utility screws so dang handy they wouldn't use them where they shouldn't :)
Jay, reminds me of the old adage, you are only as strong as your weakest link. I think I will re-blog this series as I am sure my audience will find this informational.
How shoddy, how lazy! Thanks for this post, as all your others, it's very good... and appreciated.
Thank you Ken. I hope it's useful for you!
Charlie - you mean I can't buy a box of 500 brass or stainless screws for $1?
Chris - thank you and they probably will! The toilet is only as strong as the weakest screw... there's a great thought!
Virginia - true, it is both! And certainly not professional!
Jay - The reason every sub uses drywall screws is that drywall crews leave them by the thousands. Everyone grabs a handful for their tool belt and when something needs to be attached, it gets "screwed."
For sure John. And the fact that they know to take the "good" screws home for their stuff there...
Jay, it looks like somebody's going to get "screwed" if they think they're paying for quality worksmanship here.
Well, I am due for the final inspection in about 8 weeks Wende! We'll know then what they have done to correct these things.
Jay, my grandpa used to say that a professional gets paid to do a job and a craftsman takes pride in his work. One should learn to recognize the difference between the two and always gravitate towards the craftsman. I would say my grandpa would consider you a craftsman and those guys professionals.
Great post and I enjoy the picture proof. I cannot wait to see the other posts you promised.
I like that distinction Sue. But professional has a rank associated with it, as does craftsman. Someone who uses drywall screws in this way is no pro, and probably a 7-11 acquisition.
Craig - they will be along! I am not a drywall screw fan for anything but, um, drywall!
Hi Jay, they didn't tell the plumber there was going to be a home inspector coming by to look at things before he got the toilet in place.
I'm not sure the "plumber" did that Dale! A real plumber probably would have done it right...
I have seen the workers carry around drywall screws in their pockets and they just take one out for anything that they need to attach.
They also drop them all over the place. They are cheap and plentiful on the hob site, so they use them.
Good points. Most "builders" are merely greedy and sloppy general contractors.
Great job spotting this problem-in-wait. Drywall screws really are handy, but under the toilet isn't a good place to use them. You laid out the issues perfectly and everyone who reads this is a little bit smarter for it.
Jay , great post . I did get a chuckle when comment # 15 still called OSB , particle board as people still don't know the difference . No matter how much a builder stresses quality , the workers in the field can still be the weakest link followed by a site supervisor who overlooks the " little things " while trying to put out fires . I think the plumbers helper was obviously lazy & inhaled too much pipe dope . Thanks for pointing out the non-obvious !
Great example. We were just talking in the office about staged inspections for new construction. This will be perfect to share with our agents on buyer clients.
I'm looking forward to your next posts.
How depressing! When it takes the same amount of time to do the job right as it does to do it wrong, and isn't even really saving any money, what possible sense does that make? I used to ask my son that all the time when he was young and did a sloppy job on his homework. Ok, now you get to do it again!
Jay, This was a great post and shows the importance of using an agent and home inspector even on new construction. In this case, the builder himself probably does not have a clue what is actually going on at his worksite.
Keep up the good work!
That's what happens when you tell the carpenter to do the plumber's job.
In this, as in other walks of life, reputation matters. Once in a while, a 'spec' house pops up as a one-off and it makes me think, "Who are these people? Does anybody know them or their work?" Once a house is finished, buyers may be wowed by the hardwood floors and granite counters, but I'm looking at the joinery of the crown moldings and how the plumbing was run. By then, it's too late to really gauge quality and attention to detail where it counts. Drywall can hide a multitude of sins!
Another abused fastener is the lowly deck screw--especially the cheap galvanized ones.
Drywall screws are the new duct tape. As my son calls it "The force that binds the universe."
I have to admit a fondness for them but there are places they are used that are really scary. Try joist hangers. Remembering that they are brittle compared to a nail, what do you think happens after a few years of the typical vibration a house endures.
You'd be amazed by what some building inspector's will miss. Most times they are overwhelmed with the number of inspections they have to do and will go by the builders "word" and do a quick viewing if they know the builder. While in the past this builder may have been phenomenal, nowadays they are going with "cheaper" bids and less professional guys. Things like the above happen and the inspectors are not checking as thoroughly. [This is just an example: Not intended as a direct reflection on my town]
I always learn something from you posts. I had the same thought as Marshall in #44 - sounds like dry wall screws are being used for way more than they were intended, just like duct tape.
Mel
This is a great post. I bookmarked it to save for when I'm doing new home construction projects.
Ginny - I say to my clients all the time - the quality of the house depends on the supervisor on site every day and the quality of the subs employed.
Roger - on this inspection, I picked up one nearby and showed it to my clients. They said, "That's it?!" Yep, that's it!!
Jim - there is a lot of greed and slop going on I guess, but here it was just crappy work!
Thanks Dave. I see drywall screws under toilets all the time!
Ed - you got all that right! And if I ever see particle board under a toilet I will tell my clients to run as fast as they can!
Jon - I only recommend two, the pre-drywall and the final. Both usually find amazing things!
Linda - come to my house! I do that all the time - "re do it!"
Steve - you are probably right about the builder. That's why the supervisor on site every day is so important.
Tim - no telling who put those screws there!
Peter - I agree with all that. For deck screws, use the beefy ones!
Jim - I have been saying that same thing for a couple of decades now!
Marshall - you are right - they are used for everything! I love it when they are used for straps!
Brad - not such a good eye! I see it so much I always look.
Wade - you are right. They are on site for such a short amount of time and any house is one of dozens they need to look at that day!
Thanks Mel. That is the intention! Pedagogy means teach and learn.
And thank you too Mike! My new construction posts usually open a bunch of eyes!
Jay,
Great post. I did an inspection and the infamous drywall screws where used on exterior joist hangers. Man people love them things, Tico who is Tico (or equivalent hanger nail).
It would be nice to see what's going on throughout the process. I had some "new construction neighbors" call me one day to tell me that I should be careful about selling any of the 3 homes an out of town builder was constructing. They had watched him shove miscellaneous garbage (debris from lunch, etc.) into the holes before the cement truck arrived to pour the footings. They'd also "wandered over there" the night before and had seen no rebar... guess the builder thought pop cans and lunch sacks would reinforce those footings.
Later they called again - to warn about lack of insulation in the walls.
I steered clear of those houses, but later one of my agents took a listing from someone who had purchased one. She said the heating bills were more than she could handle. (Electric baseboards, of course.) Too little insulation and EBB in north Idaho is not a good combination.
That builder, by the way, moved on to some other town after he sold the 3 houses.
Hi Jay, Nicely done. It never ceases to amaze me why some try so hard to use the wrong materials/methods.
Jay, not a good scenario because think how heavy a toilet is fully filled with water & the flange is not secured with proper screws. The screws are 25cents at most?
Drywall screws come in a large box and are easy to keep up with. Keeping up with the screws that come with the flange takes being organized (I believe this may be part of the "professional" aspect you refer to).
Although I must say, I have not seen any of the toilet flanges I've purchased at the big box stores coming with any screws, so that may be part of the problem as well.
Amazing how some people work.
Donald - and them there joist hangers should last for oh so long!
Marte - wow. Here the Counties are very interested in foundation pours, with proof that all the necessaries are done (like rebar). But north Idaho? I wouldn't know! Apparently it doesn't take much to find out how poorly done a house can be. Like, um, living in it!
Bill - I am no longer amazed. Sometimes I get a bit surprised, but the word amaze left me a long time ago...
Lyn - a large person, when using the toilet, has a tendency to rock and roll a bit, sitting and standing up afterward. That puts real pressure on the toilet and its connections. I'm not joking when I say that drywall screws can be problematic. They are!
Jeremy - flange kits here come with pretty large stainless steel screws with wide grips. If they don't the instructions will say to use them. Drywall screws just can't cut the mustard.
Brenda and Ron - for sure. If someone thinks the world is interested in the Golden Rule, generally speaking, I think that person may be a bit naive!
Dear Jay,
I was a licensed General Contractor for 20 years before going into Real Estate. After a few years at a larger national firm, I passed all the Broker exams and started my own Brokerage -- called One Day At a Time!
And that is what I practice ---- a steady caution and concern for detail ---- keeping my philosophy in front of me every time I see my company name.
Needless to say, when with a Client and showing property, that experience really is an asset. I am constantly appalled when I show expensive homes and see shoddy work. I asked my client to walk out immediately when we entered one home and the firebrick in the "mega" Living Room fireplace was installed improperly. We didn't look at anything else about the house. Why should we?
If the builder couldn't construct the areas that show properly --- what horrors await behind the walls where prospective Buyers cannot see?
Have a happy day -
Lynn
NOTE: My experience is the first "filter" when selecting. My clients still hire professional home inspectors during the due diligence period. L.
Lynn - I like your attitude and the name of the business! Wondering what we can't see is something home inspectors deal with every day! And especially on flips and "remodels." What's being covered up!?
Just stopping by to invite you to the 2nd Annual ActiveRain Super Bowl Party. Hope you’ll come and bring some friends!
Hi Russel. It's been a while since you stopped by.
Sorry, I missed this until this morning! I wasn't on line much yesterday, church stuff in the morning and early afternoon and football stuff later! Sorry I missed your party.
Did you read my post?
I used to do contruction defect claims. It is amazing what you find when the walls are opened up.
Well, typically we inspectors can't do that Gene, but in this case they were wide open!
Jay - someone was smart to hire you for a pre-drywall inspection. Will the contractor be fixing all of the boo-boos? Do you report this stuff to anyone?
Have they hired Uncle Bob as a consultant? A million dollars apparently can't buy quality these days.
I agree with Tim #41, let a licensed plumber do the plumbing work. Again, another great reason to get a home inspection, pre-drywall inspection on new homes is a must.
Cynthia - I have been doing pre-drywall inspections for about 12 years. Prior to that they simply weren't done, at least around here.
He does get around Jim. I run into his work so often, it makes me kind of proud to know him so well...
Diana - how do you know this ISN"T a licensed plumber!?
Quit picking on drywall screws. They're good for everything. Joist hangers, ledgerboards, electric panel covers... everything.
Joist hangers! Ha!
Well, Reubs, you are right, everything, well, except drywall that is... I can't tell you how often on inspections I see drywall screws used for drywall! OK, it's not often at all, well, almost never, but they are really good for that!
Jeremy - he says that because we see'em all the time!
Wow, that's crazy. Have any collapsed floors been reported yet?
If you're referring to joist hangers, Jeremy, the screws are usually seen on decks. But just as bad! Any decks collapsing lately? All the time!
I've seen them in deck boards, but never in joist hangers. That's reallyTRYING to use the wrong screw!
Virtually all uses of drywall screws, Jer, are wrong when not used for drywall!
That certainly is poor practice. I've seen those flanges nailed down!
Even better Wayne! Gee, I hope the used the right nails! ;>)